Jean Allen

If you accept that the US wasnt interested in peace in Gaza, why would it be an agent of peace in Ukraine

Yes! I dont do IC work but I do have several Ukrainian friends and the picture is more nuanced than the picture youre giving me

Youre projecting an argument onto me. Thats not why I oppose US involvement

This is a neocon argument which brings us back to the OP. The United States isnt just intervening out of the goodness of its heart--i also oppose trumps attempt to steal ukrainian resources.

Yes

Well there you go, back to my op. Liberals have become pro war and have accepted that its the US' job to play world police, so when you look for people who oppose war you dont find a lot of people besides those who have focused entirely on it

Okay kid

Russian imperialism should be opposed by russians

The US isnt the world's ref was my answer. We have already incentivized war, its absolutely clear since the interventions into Libya and Syria that you arm up and ideally get nukes or you can be bombed. Putins government should fall but its clear that the US shouldnt be the agent of that fal

Im saying neither of us can be confident but I wouldnt be so confident calling martial law democracy and freedom

Also no. I think the main job of Americans is to oppose US imperialism.

Well precisely because of that martial law we dont know whether Ukrainians support the war. We have differing sources of propaganda. My actual point is that since the Ukraine war liberals have stopped being doves which this thread has thoroughly proven

So are we good with bombing and starving Venezuela or are you guys just so enamored with your Good War

When was their last election?

Ive just done work long enough to know that peace isnt coming from us arms shipments. Our book club is doing very well though, enjoy complaining outside of it

Opposing US involvement /=/ supporting invasion

I dont think Ukrainians are getting a say, period, and I dont think the United States is the world's referee.

I think their position, that our international work people living in the United States is primarily to oppose US militarism, sometimes leads to takes I disagree with. But its a sensible and understandable position that grew out of a previous decade of anti war work.

I traveled across the state to canvass for mamdani.

Well we are four years into a war thats going to end any second now with ukraine/Russia about to collapse depending on what propaganda you read. But you get how this perspective is pro-militarism right

Get specific

I dont like PSL or Answer either!

Yes.

I think there should have been a negotiated peace as opposed to Bidens policy of opposing putin to the last Ukrainian. I dont think that policy has much to do with supporting the people of Ukraine.

So then we should find ways to mobilize people opposed to that war as a way to spin up other things we can do. Quick! Whatre some national anti war groups we can go to

But you get at it exactly--since Obama's "smart power", but especially after the Russian invasion of Ukraine, liberals and progressives are far more hawkish and supportive of US military action. The war in Gaza broke that but it takes years for orgs to spin up

You should work to understand things before you talk about them.

We are opposed to bleeding out Ukraine in the name of checking Russia yes.

Like it or not this is the actual shape of the anti imperialist/pro peace movement in the US. Nationally there just isnt that much more and progressives and liberals who are freaking out that DSA is working with "fringe groups" should ask whats happened to liberal doves

It was that membership in a democratic centralist organization was grounds for expulsion. Wasnt meaningfully applied ever and was removed at last convention. But thats different than working with these organizations.