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I see some S Peters, F Leroy, M Estevez in there 😂

I wanna get back to this but I didn't have the time. Perhaps you wanna VC about it at some point in the future?

But if all you're saying is: "When the perpetrator does not see their action towards the victim as morally wrong, I think they are mistaken, because on my view the victims POV should always be prioritized" then I mostly agree but again I think that works on a subjectivist approach perfectly fine.

Just to note again here, I think I agree on where you are coming from, but disagree on the metaethical pipeline you take 😅

I think this kind of begs the question. You're saying: Through the victim's eyes, it is immoral. Well, of course, otherwise you wouldn't have called them victim. I assume that the perpetrator doesn't see a victim. But I agree that they are probably missin some data or not makin the right connections

It feels to me like the core of your message is that you cannot see how anyone can hold a moral framework in which it is morally okay for aforementioned victimisation. And I tend to agree. But that can perfectly be the case under moral subjectivism or other forms of moral anti-realism.

In this video I discuss common objections to moral antirealism. The discussion will be based on an article on my blog. Here's the link for the article:https:... Defending moral antirealism against three common objections

I don't really see any other way out of that, tbh. And I see all ways of defining some type of moral realism or moral objectivity as falling apart under semantic analysis. Are you familiar with Lance Independent's content? Recommended! Not sure which video is best to start with, but prob this one:

"I don't see how it's an opinion to say that victimisation is morally wrong."

How would you characterize it otherwise?

Morality being subjective usually shouldn't lead to those kind of views if people holding them would be honest and reflect sufficiently. Provided they value consistency (also pretty much a given since otherwise you run into the principle of explosion).

Yeah and more related to my original point, there's also a group that claims "I could never go vegan, meat is just so damn good", and it turns out they mostly eat nuggets. There has to be some self delusion going on there.

First off: I of course completely agree that everyone should eat the pb alternative, or just something else that is not from animal exploitation.

But I speak from my own experience that I can smell in an instant that bacon is cooking instead of smoky soyprotein/seitan/etc. And surely I'm not alone.

Thanks for your response. With all due respect, you're proving my exact point.

Yes, you will lose some food experiences, and YES, it is 110% worth it, because, well, NTT basically.

Or when people claim that a vegan diet is not limiting in terms of food & flavor experiences. Yeah, it might be bad marketing to grant that, but I feel like we gain more by being honest and enabling ourselves to be more empathetic towards the yet-to-be vegans.

Same when I'm reading people say how we can get the cheese experience from what's currently popularly available in analogues. I'm just left feeling dumbfounded, like: Are you sure you ever even had decent cheese?

Claims like this demonstrate to me that there's a significant group of people that never had a strong hedonistic bond wrt certain animal products, due to the palate they somehow developed. This is so outside my personal experience; I would say that smoke aroma is <50% of what makes bacon bacon.

Tofu tips if you're less into mushy tofu:

- Keep all your tofu in the freezer. Once you want to use it, defrost in salted boiling water for about 5 min (depends on thickness). This wont make the tofu more watery, but more firm and very nicely chewy!
- Toss cut cubes with some cornstarch for crisp

Sorry but it's quite tiresome to hear the same "vegans are doing advocacy wrong" point over and over again. Perhaps step 1 is to go vegan oneself, and then step 2 is to take action to improve on advocacy, if you're so certain that you know better.

Whats the alternative? Sure, I'll vote for force, but it'll be a while before we get majority 😂

Although even on that front, socialization hits so fucking deep, it's not hard to understand why people react like this. Shit needs time (sadly) and patience.

I totally get the feeling. On the other hand, most of us were nonvegan for probably the majority of their lives. That sucks, but I'm pretty sure most of us weren't terrible people.

What really damages my "this person is cool" views is when they don't even show openness to the thought.

If that'd be the major driver then we'd see tons of vegans anywhere that is not a food desert, which is not the case.

The main driver in all those scenarios is unwillingness due to socialisation, conformity/agreeableness and ignorance, plus the tribal ways in which we define our moral circles.

The classic "I don't have an argument so I switch to the meta to claim that they are doing the advocacy itself wrong"