RunningMn9

How's that going?

If your response to that was “great, let them starve kids so I get what I want!”, well, uh…no?

The shutdown wasn’t “standing up to Trump”. The shutdown was “let these people over here suffer in the hopes that the GOP cares about ending suffering that they just caused on purpose.”

Turns out the GOP doesn’t care about suffering and immediate was like “cool, we are gonna starve kids too”.

We got here because too many people didn’t realize we were headed here, and they gave the GOP total control of the government. They probably shouldn’t have done that.

Yeah, that has been very frustrating for me. If you have to make innocent people suffer against their will to get what you want, maybe re-examine your morality.

They focused on the morality of what they wanted and not on what they were willing to do (to others) to get it.

Would you rather be the party that’s willing to starve people for political wins, or the party that shrinks from that reality? I would like to not be associated with a party willing to starve people for political wins.

I was talking about the Dem base that is freaking out that someone had to end this shutdown, once it became clear it had no chance of successfully leveraging pain.

The base just wants to rage and fight without any semblance of a realistic and achievable end game.

Way to sell it to the Supreme Court that tariffs are critical to national security, by using those powers on…the national security threat that is pasta.

But it would satisfy their vague desire to fight/resist. Which I get. I just don’t think they really understand the limitations of minority rule, or trying to use human suffering to compel action by people that seem to love creating human suffering.

Literally no one on earth thinks that ending the shutdown is going to alter Trump’s behavior. Shutting the government down wasn’t going to make him stop hurting people either.

How did people convince themselves that hurting more people was key to making someone that delights in that change?

Shutting the government down was making all of those things worse. It wasn’t helping, it wasn’t about to help. It was uselessly making things worse.

There is no scenario where they were going to flip 13+ GOP senators to stop any of the things you care about.

You can repeat it one more time or infinity more times. You need 13+ more votes with no mechanism to get them. That’s the fundamental problem.

The election on Tuesday doesn’t give you any votes to restore those subsidies. Keeping the govt shutdown isn’t going to give you the 13+ votes you need. You cannot escape that you need 13+ senators to flip and it was never going to happen.

30 days of shutdown and a bloodbath election flipped 0 GOP Senators. There is a fundamental math problem that you are completely ignoring. The only way to avoid this BBB healthcare crisis is to get 13+ GOP senators that voted for the BBB to flip. There’s no magic “save healthcare” button.

Millions lost healthcare in July. In order for millions to get it back, you need to flip at least 13 GOP senators. No amount of government shutdown is going to flip 13+ GOP Senators. There is no amount of “having what it takes” that changes that reality.

1000 more days if that’s what it takes?

So you are willing to leave the government shutdown for 200 more days, if that’s what it takes?

To answer your question, it’s easier to get 10 Dems to cave because they aren’t sociopaths, and their capacity to watch people suffer the effects of the shutdown is less than their GOP counterparts. So to fight that fire, you have to buckle down. How long?

You have to get 13 GOP Senators (assuming you don’t have to also overcome Fetterman). How much longer do you think it would take? You obviously have to have an answer. 90 days? 120 days?

The Dems have 47 votes to extend the subsidies. So they need 13 GOP Senators who all voted to end the subsidies to suddenly flip. How long would it take do you think to get those votes?

30 days of shutdown pressure and a bloodbath election yielded 0 additional votes, so how much longer?

How many more days do you think it would take to get 13 GOP Senators to break (and then some number of GOP reps in the House)?

Starving the people SHOULD always make us cave. Like…WTF? The answer isn’t to hold strong and let people starve. The answer is to focus on making sure that the people being starved know who is doing the starving so they stop voting for them.

I don’t think it’s the worst thing that can happen. I think that we can’t keep the govt shutdown forever, and so whatever we those things are gonna be, are gonna be. The people need to understand that 2024 had consequences.

Some damage will be mitigated but a lot won’t. Shutdowns have consequences.

Like, what do you think is gonna happen now that wasn’t going to happen. I feel like people are living in a dream world. The country elected these people and put them in charge. Let the people experience the consequences. Maybe that will stop them from doing this again?

What more and worse suffering?

Yes. I agree, and was against the shutdown for this reason. The problem is that there are two sides and only one side cares about people suffering. That side will always lose a contest where suffering is the leverage.

You can’t beat sociopaths in that battle without becoming a sociopath.

The ACA was killed in May. And no amount of govt shutdown was going to undo that.

Caving will stop the additional damage that is being done because of the shutdown itself. It won’t stop the country from bearing the full brunt of the consequences of electing DJT and giving the GOP total control of the govt.

We probably shouldn’t have given the GOP the keys to the kingdom?

Because they aren’t sociopaths and I don’t want them to be.