Pylon Enjoyer 🏳️‍⚧️🇺🇦🇪🇺

ooi what are your views on economic policy? tax / spend?
(social liberal LD member here who feels similarly to you but is also too economically liberal for the Greens)

I think SHL was saying it was a bad facade in the first place (because it entailed normalising relations with dictators in the hope trade would magically bring democracy). But I agree the article is poorly framed.

To be fair, Starmer is messaging towards Reformy voters here - so it's not surprising (still not great!) when people interpret his statement as "we helped the attacks," especially because he (understandably) refuses to criticise them.

There was another way to spin this, and he didn't take it.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Petersburg_paradox

St Petersburg paradox is slightly different but also a situation where EV is obviously the wrong thing to pay attention to

I think regardless of intent it reads as an Islamophobic dogwhistle, yeah. And with Starmer I don't think it's worth trying to figure out intent.

Lib Dems chilling

Here's the letter in Zoë's thread as a single post

Genuinely beggars belief how delusional this is.

Dear Colleagues, The result in Gorton and Denton is deeply disappointing. Instead of a Labour MP who can be a local champion delivering for Gorton and Denton alongside a Labour Government and a Labour mayor, the people of Gorton and Denton now have a representative who is more interested in dividing people than uniting them. We have to learn lessons from that, and we will. I know this is a tough result for our movement but I still want to thank you for everything you did to support our brilliant candidate Angeliki Stogia. She did a fantastic job and Gorton and Denton deserved to have her as their MP. We've seen the true colours of Zack Polanski's Greens in this campaign. The Greens were able to capitalise on an endorsement from George Galloway to win over enough voters to push them over the line.

Their willingness to welcome Galloway's divisive, sectarian politics is a sign that the Greens are not the harmless environmentalists they pretend to be and their position on legalising all drugs shows how unstable this electoral coalition is. It cannot survive a general election campaign. It hurts, but this is the kind of result that we have often seen parties of government face. In by-elections people can make their voice heard without risking a change of government. I get it: people are rightly impatient to see the change they voted for. It's my job to make sure that happens. And I'm working day in, day out to see it through. Over the coming months, people will feel the benefit of the long-term decisions this government is taking. Look at the good economic news we've had in the past week: inflation and borrowing coming down, retail sales and business confidence rising, energy bills falling.

And look at the policies that are going to make a difference in people's lives in the coming months: the landmark Employment Rights Act, money off energy bills, the cruel two-child limit scrapped, more free breakfast clubs opening, Pride in Place funding coming through, NHS waiting lists continuing to fall. It will show what we've been saying from the outset of this year: the country is turning a corner. These are all Labour policies, putting Labour values into action - policies no other party would or could deliver. The Greens may have won here, but they simply do not have the resources, the activist base or the local knowledge to replicate this victory across the country. We've seen that before. We've seen it with the Lib Dems, who have often won mid-term by-elections against both the Conservatives and Labour, but never been able to come close to winning nationally. We've seen it with George Galloway, who won two mid-term by elections but held neither of those seats in a general election.

We will continue to warn of the risk the Greens pose: the risk of extreme policies like legalising all drugs and pulling out of NATO that most voters strongly reject, and the risk of splitting the progressive vote so that Reform come through the middle. The next election is too important to let that happen. It's a fight we can win, and we're going to win it. Best, Keir

Here's Starmer's letter to MPs in a single post:

I see, thanks for explaining!

Which direction do you worry Rayner will go too far in? I'm not Labour but my sense was she's not super socially liberal or anything.

What gets me is when they attack Polanski for not talking much about climate issues when that's the only thing people knew about the Greens before he came along! Labour are completely disconnected from their voter base.

Needs a different tone as well I think. "These people are naive" not "these people are insane." (fwiw I'm told the Greens are getting rid of the natural birth nonsense but there's still plenty of stuff like that to attack them on)

It's also.. probably not true? Like Labour clearly thought it was close so they can't have been getting good data!

Yes (although Lib Dems are the next most internally democratic party)

Genuinely this is how I've always lived since leaving school and it's crazy to hear how national politicians talk about my life. I get that "everything is shit" is what you say in opposition and the government is terrified of the things that make our country great, but still..

Like even our Jess on QT last night - "multiculturalism can work but we need to invest in communities" ?? it IS working and we could make it work EVEN BETTER!

Every immigrant to the UK knows it's one of the best countries for integration and multiculturalism but frustratingly the UK-born left and centre constantly deny it!

I mean, Reform getting a Commons majority on 26% would break trust in politics *even more* than any PR outcome in the next GE.

Patriarchy loses out

Chris is a pure Labour-Green swing voter - we will see if they make him more or less likely to vote Green. (Of course, most of these voters are not on Bluesky, but it's still pretty ironic)

I don't know, I think they can get 7-10 seats very easily. Of course, that would be well below what their strategy is aiming for!

That's true, and as you say we're already seeing a realignment there. But like, I don't think the Greens ending up at "Lib Dems in mid 2000s" would be particularly desirable for them.

Well I mean, he doesn't have much to lose? There's 10s of seats he stands to gain, and at most 2 he stands to lose, with this approach.

The UK's obsession with natural birth is stupid and dangerous, the GPEW will probably quietly get rid of the policy in the next few years, nobody needs to take any lessons from Labour supporters about medical crankery but negatively polarising yourself to win an argument on bluesky is ludicrous

I suppose I'm saying that I think those men *are* genuinely outraged at the idea of women being denied C sections! Like, I don't think it's just an anti-Green bit, which I think a lot of the stupid living room discourse is, for example.

It's true I'm no Green (I do prefer them to Labour). And I don't think Zack's 2024 comments justify voting Labour in G&D - anti-Green centrists are making too big a deal of it. But I didn't like the rhetoric about who should speak, especially after we've seen it abused to oppose trans healthcare.

My understanding is that the policy is technically still on the books, but will be removed soon. Not a great look, but fine whatever. In any case, that doesn't mean the problem is that men are calling it out! We need everyone to stand up for bodily autonomy!

I this particular criticism of people calling out the Greens' position pretty distressing because Labour have taken away trans people's freedom using the exact same sorts of arguments. Yes it's not as big a deal as anti-Green centrists claim. But everyone should be speaking out for bodily autonomy.