Obadiah Mbatang

And IDS‘s speech saw him literally quieten down when he said “turning up the volume” and the standing ovations were clearly pre-planned. People make themselves look silly when they can’t see what’s in front of them.

Right. But the problem is that Badenoch’s speech wasn’t poor. It was a very good speech. The content may or may not have been nonsense. But the delivery and the performance was best since Cameron.

👀😬

Gordon would’ve been better off going in 2007 but it would’ve hurt his majority. Sunak might’ve better off going in 2022/earky 2023 but it would’ve cost him his majority.

A new PM. There’s a fiscal crisis and the PLP don’t accept cuts. Or possibly they feel the need to do it having called for an election in 2022. Or they think things might get worse and best off fighting Reform as a fresh face. It’s very unlikely (a new PM is a racing certainty) but plausible.

The most interesting coup was the Charles Clarke/Siobhain McDonagh one in 2008. Clarke was really behind all three attempts. They probably came close but then David Miliband flopped in 2008 and Mandelson returned.

Purnell’s wasn’t really a coup. he was just being honest with himself.

And this doesn’t include Your Party. Labour is probably behind the Tories.

As it happens, I was just disagreeing on the policy point. If anything it may even make your criticism even more damning. But you obsessed over the “hatred” comment. Oh well.

“Creeped out” by your public profile from something I saw an week ago. It’s not a “psychoanalysis”. It’s just plainly obvious. When you’re going into ethnic heritage stuff and mocking a Christian for losing their faith, that’s undeniably very weird. Can’t not be pathological. Free country though.

How articulate.

No, you definitely do hate her. Some of your criticisms - a “childlike understanding of religion” simply for wrestling with the Problem of Evil and odd references to ethnic heritage - reveals something more pathological beyond “I just think she’s bad”.

Incidentally, they’ve slightly ditched that plan. They’ve announced a whole range of policies on immigration. It’s not working for the very reason why Badenoch was sceptical of rushing and announcing policies off the bat: no one cares or is interested in the Tory Party.

I know you have an unbridled hatred for the woman. But you can’t say she does no policy when - as most people have gathered - her rise was a direct result of clear policy positions. Her plan was don’t announce policy on but develop and renew policy until later. That’s not “I’m not doing policy”.

She wasn’t a minister under Theresa May. She was first appointed to govt under Boris. Tbf to her, part of her rise to the Tory leadership is precisely b/c of a controversial policy stances - and winning the argument within Whitehall. It can’t be “she killed trans kids” and then “she does no policy”.

A lot of takes on Tory Party both here and on Twitter ignores facts about the composition of the Tory Party in Parliament (among other things).

No, it would've been far worse. Much, much worse. His polling is worse than Badenoch's. Focus group performance with ex-Tory voters is dire. And his strong anti-ECHR line would've really divided the Tories in Parliament and really undermined his authority. Possible that there'd have been defections.

I don’t fully agree with Sam though. You did have the Wintertons in the 2000s who were overtly racist. But they were seen as cranks. And there were people who did “legitimate concerns” as to why people vote BNP. And last year, the rightwing press pretty much condemned the race riots. It’s
online.

If you read Lord Hailsham’s Case for Conservatism, the first page is denouncing positivism but also racism. Which he thinks is a consequence of decline of Xny and rise of scientism. The idea one can’t be a racist or rightwing.. I mean ffs Jacob Rees Mogg’s dad was one of those calling out Powell.

Thatcher had posters saying “Labour call him black, we say he’s British”. Tory critics of Thatcher’s “swamping”. And people forget she did while denouncing the NF. Tory position in 1950s was opposed to colour bar on immigration. In fact, Spectator and some Tories opposed Commonwealth Immigration Act

Even with Stears talking about Brexit (and there are people like Pabst and Millbank who are anti-Brexit). The logical conclusion of Blue Labour must be Eurosceptic. His piece on how the Common Market was initially rooted in CST but moved towards a Kantian liberalism I think is key.

Yes. Though the problem is (and I’m saying this to be Bluesky audience) even the BL of back then was unpopular. And Stears ignores while Maurice backed Strangers into Citizens, he favoured an end to free movement and was criticised for talking about talking to non-outright fascist members of EDL.

They’re already planning an electoral pact. The debate is just whether to have a new party that is a formal alliance with the Greens or whether to join the Greens under Polanski. But they’re almost certainly getting together in one way or another if ZP wins.

No I’m saying they’re not exclusively to blame for the breakdown of norms in this regard

But clearly it isn’t. And the online right aren’t exclusively to blame for it.

And another point that’s forgotten is Farage explicitly doesn’t go down this road. He will always talk about White British decline but pivot to “it’s not about race, not demographic makeup but the culture”. The online right never ask why he does that and doesn’t go for white nationalism.

Yup. If terms like “racist” like common meaning, it’s harder to fight actual racism.

The issue is many are slippery. If it is about “demographic change” but raising issues about cultural implications and social trust if you have such churn in a short period (Putnam), that’s one thing. I think that’s legitimate (others will disagree). Some aren’t doing that.

I agree. But I think by broadening these things out, we opened the door to people going “fuck this” or not taking it seriously.

I’m probably to the right of Ben on this stuff. Actually I am to the right of him on this stuff. And I think this is pretty much spot on.