curiously liberal

Over the past few days I’ve tried to have several reasonable conversations with members of the transgender community, of whom i can only assume to be activists of some sort, and am only more of the opinion now that this is an incoherent ideology that as a liberal i want nothing to do with.

Based on your ultimate wish for bathrooms being all inclusive, I don't understand, for example, why you can't understand why a parent wouldn't want their 7 year old daughter going to the bathroom in the same space as a 40 year old man. There's a good reason for that separation, wouldn't you say?

I appreciate the back & forth, but u haven't really answered any of my base questions (like the difference btwn gender & sex i asked in our DMs). U more bombarded me with perspective based on assumptions about my views. I find it frustrating & disappointing. There's nothing malicious gng on here.

I'm not saying it's a big deal to me, but i'm troubled by the movement's method of pretending perspectives that DO exist don't exist. I find it to be a very troubling movement in this regard. Don't like a biological reality? Pretend it doesn't exist & say talking about it is offensive.

To your first point: I think it's being misrepresented by the trans-community. I don't think 15 years ago someone who appeared biologically male walking into a female bathroom was just blanket acceptable. I don't think you're correc t on that and I think saying that is somewhat gaslighting.

...saying it to be mean or take any rights away from anyone. I'm saying it because I think the language surrounding it is misleading, purposely ambiguous, and toxic.

...exploited yes, but not manufactured, it's still obviously a position that many people disagree with you on. It was enough to majorly affect an election...& I'm telling you as someone who has been a very partisan Democrat & talks to tons of other Dems that i find this movement misplaced. Not...

And it IS gaslighting to tell someone who's telling you that they find merit in the argument of dividing restrooms by sexual biology that no one REALLY believes that argument. That's the definition OF gaslighting. Whether or not this argument was manufactured, which i don't think it was...

Why would u want to take a safe space away from some1 who wants it? It's simply not for us to say bc it isn't our disposition. There's seemingly an inability to admit or talk about a physiological difference which also happens to be the very basis of the subject, which is what I find offputting.

What is ur position ultimately, that there should be male & female bathrooms & everyone should use them as is aligned with their gender identity? Or that there should just be public group bathrooms for everyone & no separation is needed period? Knowing where u stand on this one thing would help.

You’re arguing with me about a position i haven’t even taken.

You’re talking past me, that’s why you’re exhausted.

and this is why i'm asking you to make a clear distinction between sex and gender in our chat as a baseline.

It depends what you think i'm saying it's proving.

I get the desire to say "i belong with this gender group" but ur desire to do that is the same as someone else saying "no, u belong with this sex group." Even citing a difference in brain & body doesn't address the reality of the biology. There's nothing inherintly cruel about recognizing biology.

Bathrooms aren't really divided up by gender alone, they're divided up by biological assignment, & gender is the just the easiest & most obvious way we have of identifying the differences between those biological assignments, BUT just like sexual biology it isn't perfect. Deviations occur.

i'm not sure what this has to do with the conversation.

i'd prefer going back to the chat if possible.

What do actual biologists know better? You're confusing points here. Actual biologists know better that what?

I'm unclear on what consensus you're talking about and what you think it proves. Consensus of what and that what?

Though there are many trans-women that can appear as biologically female, for instance (and vice versa) people tend to identify others' based on appearance of biology and not someone's preferred gender identity.

...things are already established fact which actually aren't consensus...and when the fact that they're not consensus are brought up, the conversation typically breaks down into ad hominem attacks.

...Some people don't honor gender identity, something you decide in your mind and that i have no stake in, as the defining factor. This is why i'm trying to get a baseline of discussion in our DMs and this is why it's so hard to talk about this subject, because the community acts as if certain...

No b/c you are closing the case on a case that's not closed. You are claiming that it's settled that a trans-woman, for example, is a like entity to a cis-woman in the respect that they would share a bathroom because in your eyes they share the same gender. That's your world view...

I'm not even going that route, so we don't have to go there. I don't think there's a correlation there.

I get it; they exploited the issue, but what does this ultimately mean in the scheme of things? People exploit issues all of the time. You can't gaslight people and tell them that they don't believe what they believe, regardless of whether or not you think they've been told to believe it.

Respectfully, I don't see these issues as being analogous at all.

I have NO love for Terry Schilling, believe me, but this is a very purposeful way of stating this. He knew this was a wedge issue, yes, but it wasn't an issue made up out of thin air just to get voters. It was a sentiment they knew would tap in to voter frustration, so he used it advantageously.

b/c if you're willing i have thoughts i'd like to trade just to see your honest thoughts on them without any fighting or anything.

where is a better long form forum to discuss this. i can't get anything out without surpassing the limit lol.

Well, first and foremost as I gather some thoughts, I sincerely thank you for being willing to have the conversation with me.